tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post8926457415460081892..comments2024-03-28T22:45:25.693+00:00Comments on Steve Does Comics: Who's the strongest? Amazing Spider-Man Annual #15.Steve W.http://www.blogger.com/profile/09191442559702617745noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-3002169055460269922018-05-31T16:47:30.979+01:002018-05-31T16:47:30.979+01:00As I sit here contemplating it occurs to me we hav...As I sit here contemplating it occurs to me we have not seen the Thursday post!!!Charlie Horse 47https://www.blogger.com/profile/00906538705798228800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-7455852996707136392018-05-30T22:06:49.510+01:002018-05-30T22:06:49.510+01:00Oh and Ghost Rider was officially 5 tons level, up...Oh and Ghost Rider was officially 5 tons level, upgraded to 10 for Dan Ketch. Aquarian looked to be at least as strong as Thing as Wundarr, maybe even stronger. Whether Wolverine is super humanly strong is a debate in itself. Silver Surfer can indeed enhance himself to Class 100 but isn’t usually quite that strong, more like 75-80 tons level.Conrad Knight Sockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12047473790475457299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-75317652179528447302018-05-30T22:00:31.710+01:002018-05-30T22:00:31.710+01:00Like anyone else, it comes down to the writer. Ger...Like anyone else, it comes down to the writer. Gerry Conway had Peter struggling to lift a car but later writers had him helping to support toppling skyscrapers or throwing tanks. Heck, even writers aren’t always internally consistent. It took Thor a full minute to kill a tiger with his bare hands under Stan Lee but in the same run, he could straighten the Leaning Tower of Pisa with one finger or tie six tanks to his hammer and throw them across the Gobi desert. Conrad Knight Sockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12047473790475457299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-65674035182120877522018-05-30T17:46:17.646+01:002018-05-30T17:46:17.646+01:00Timothy, I'll cancel my appointment in Tel Avi...Timothy, I'll cancel my appointment in Tel Aviv immediately.<br /><br />Conrad, thanks for your exhaustive research into the matter. I've just realised that 50-60 tons is what a brachiosaurus weighed. In future, I shall gauge my heroes by how many brachiosaurs they can lift.<br /><br />Charlie, Spider-Man's strength seemed to oscillate wildly in the early days. One moment, he was knocking the Thing over, the next he was struggling to even give the Vulture a bruise.Steve W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09191442559702617745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-52484581091328054252018-05-30T14:05:44.566+01:002018-05-30T14:05:44.566+01:00I refer to my thesis: Spidey fought Fancy Dan, Ox...I refer to my thesis: Spidey fought Fancy Dan, Ox, Montana, Hammer, and Snake as the Enforcers. He was probably conceived to lift a few tons... regardless of the reference manuals subsequently published. Spider would be more interesting fighting Fancy Dan than Galactus?Charlie Horse 47https://www.blogger.com/profile/00906538705798228800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-90560512160282862832018-05-30T13:50:34.925+01:002018-05-30T13:50:34.925+01:00Shulkie’s listed at 75 tons in the OHOTMU. Actuall...Shulkie’s listed at 75 tons in the OHOTMU. Actually a lot of these characters have changed over various Handbooks. She-hulk was originally listed at 50, then at 75 and now at 100+ ( too high IMO unless she’s using her dynamic strength factor, which she actually has -it’s just not as effective as her cousin’s. Calm Hulk was originally listed at 90, slightly ahead of the Thing, which fits in with the fight where the two swapped bodies. Samson is meant to be as strong as a calm Hulk but I believe the downgraded 25 ton figure specifically came from John Byrne, who wanted to downplay him for no particularly good reason. Sasquatch is listed at 70but is actually meant to be stronger than a calm Hulk. Wonder Man was listed at 95 but that was later changed to 100+ in the 89 update; in the same update, Namor was upgraded to 100+ when underwater or drenched. Cage was listed at 3 tons level but is a lot stronger nowadays. Vision was listed at 50, then upgraded to 75. Iron Man was first listed at 11, believe it or not, then 50, then 70 and finally 85 on the 1989 update. Black bolt at 60 is too low - for a VERY brief time, he can throw down with the likes of Thor,Gladiator or Namor. Thundra is listed at 60 but I always felt she was on a level pegging with Thing and slightly ahead of a calm She-Hulk. Finally, Ka-Zar officially diesn’t Have super strength but like Tarzan, has done some crazy stuff over the years. He’s probably VERY close to Cap in strength.Conrad Knight Sockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12047473790475457299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-84974983379473902812018-05-30T10:05:58.821+01:002018-05-30T10:05:58.821+01:00Starting a debate amongst geeks about relative str...Starting a debate amongst geeks about relative strength of comic book characters. Who could possibly predict the outcome?<br /><br /><br />Steve, avoid any offers to get involved in the Middle East peace process.Timothy Fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01455609500395912042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-61382080993939213352018-05-29T23:31:22.484+01:002018-05-29T23:31:22.484+01:00I'm starting to worry about what dread nightma...I'm starting to worry about what dread nightmare I've unleashed.Steve W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09191442559702617745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-80528943734819502482018-05-29T22:49:44.963+01:002018-05-29T22:49:44.963+01:00Well, Steve, you were right.
You stirred the pot ...Well, Steve, you were right.<br /><br />You stirred the pot on this one.Killdumpsternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-21209186110511798612018-05-29T09:06:11.911+01:002018-05-29T09:06:11.911+01:00I should quote my source properly, M.P.
With all ...I should quote my source properly, M.P.<br /><br />With all the usual Wikipedia caveats, the OHMU versions are listed here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Handbook_of_the_Marvel_Universe<br /><br />Figures I quoted are from the 1985-88 update - I have the set of ten paperbacks. Turns out the paperbacks are not the oldest version of all the stats.dangermash aka The Artistic Actuaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15669793446608643884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-62920370773089610042018-05-29T08:27:54.833+01:002018-05-29T08:27:54.833+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.dangermash aka The Artistic Actuaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15669793446608643884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-61055345089057398622018-05-29T08:03:10.649+01:002018-05-29T08:03:10.649+01:00Charlie - you mean the transitive property.
Assco...Charlie - you mean the transitive property.<br /><br />Asscoativity is stuff like (A * B) * C = A * (B *C)<br /><br />That didn’t come from OHMU.dangermash aka The Artistic Actuaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15669793446608643884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-43935881989156368822018-05-29T03:26:05.793+01:002018-05-29T03:26:05.793+01:00I have to respectfully disagree with the figures D...I have to respectfully disagree with the figures Dangermash cites. They may be directly from a later edition of the Handbook. but they don't jive with history or the evidence. They are screwball figures. To wit:<br />Doc Samson is basically a calm Hulk with a hairdo, so he's pressing around 70 tons.<br />The Surfer can't press no hundred tons. But he can probably levitate stuff, so he doesn't really need to. He can take a punch, though, because he has cosmic healing powers.<br />She-Hulk can press 70 on a good day, unless she has the rage factor her cousin does, where his strength goes up the madder he gets. I've seen no evidence of that.<br />Subby is at 70 also, on dry land, as long as he's hydrated. He should keep some Gatorade handy.<br />He clobbered the Hulk the first time they met in the early Avengers by getting him under water, which the Hulk can't breath. Maybe he goes up to about 90 underwater. He can put his fist through a U-boat, anyway.<br />I figure Luke Cage is at least eight. He held his own against Spider-Man the first time they met.<br />Of course, men of reason and good will may differ on these matters. I think Ben Grimm got upgraded a bit there, and I'm happy to see that, because he can't just rely on charm all the time.<br /><br />M.P.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-60779278583904536522018-05-28T23:10:50.632+01:002018-05-28T23:10:50.632+01:00I mean Dangermash! Sorry. Hey - wasn't Danger...I mean Dangermash! Sorry. Hey - wasn't Danger Man a series in UK that was like Secret Agent Man in the USA?Charlie Horse 47https://www.blogger.com/profile/00906538705798228800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-90836060103342965222018-05-28T23:10:07.227+01:002018-05-28T23:10:07.227+01:00Dangerman! You are correct! Right around Luke Ca...Dangerman! You are correct! Right around Luke Cage Hero for Hire #15, around 1973 ish, Power Man, bragging and bragging and bragging he beat the Avengers, takes on Luke.<br /><br />Eventually Luke gets his mo-jo going and kicks PM's buttafucco in a movie theatre.<br /><br />(I only recall this b/c I went to C2E2 in 2017 and picked up this issue for $2 and reread it 35 years later, lol.)<br /><br />But the whole plot made me think of the Associative Property (?) in Math. If A > B and B > C then A must be greater than C! Therefore if Power Man beat the Avengers and Luke beat Power Man, then Luke can beat the Avengers!<br /><br />But I was curious if, by applying said Property, could we somehow justifiably argue that Mary Jane Watson could kick Galactus's buttafucco??? Or, could Aunt Petunia beat up on Thor... Coul Irv Forbush beat Steve Does Comics in an arm-wrestling match or darts or the 100 M dash?<br /><br />I mean, the possibilities here seem like someone should win an Eternal No Prize if they can demonstrate that a non-hero not even on the OHMU can beat someone who is by application of accepted logic.Charlie Horse 47https://www.blogger.com/profile/00906538705798228800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-1275100677747890262018-05-28T22:21:44.967+01:002018-05-28T22:21:44.967+01:00Dangermash and Dougie, thanks for the Wundarr the ...Dangermash and Dougie, thanks for the Wundarr the Aquarian info. I was familiar with Wundarr but knew nothing of his beardy phase.Steve W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09191442559702617745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-20826428765035143342018-05-28T21:32:03.377+01:002018-05-28T21:32:03.377+01:00Agreed Sean. Spider-Man has his opinion, the OHMU...Agreed Sean. Spider-Man has his opinion, the OHMU author has his opinion, everyone that has designed packs of Marvel Top Trumps has opinions and the rest of us have our own opinions. My opinion veers towards OHMU but that's probably because I'm not that into any comics that came out after it (I stopped reading Marvel UK somewhere around 1978).<br /><br />But there are plenty of places where Marvel history makes OHMU look wrong. Spider-Man outpunching Firelord, Cap punching out the Enchantress, people like Scorpion & Mr Hyde regularly being beaten by people on the bottom three shelves. And didn't Luke Cage beat the original Power Man?<br /><br />On the gaining and losing powers, OHMU does talk about Cap gaining superhuman strength for a while then losing it. From memory I think it put him at around the Spider-Man 10 ton level.<br /><br />Interesting that it was a behind the scenes Shooter initiative. I could definitely believe that.dangermash aka The Artistic Actuaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15669793446608643884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-83512419734871467242018-05-28T21:10:26.216+01:002018-05-28T21:10:26.216+01:00dangermash -
I'd say the problem with somethin...dangermash -<br />I'd say the problem with something like the OHMU is that its too fixed an idea of the characters. The stats are based on the characters as they were in the early 80s (I seem to recall reading somewhere that it began as an internal guide ordered by Shooter to keep Marvel writers on message...)<br /><br />The very early Marvels all had inconsistencies* with the "classic" characters that became established within a few years, and later writers regularly tinkered around with characters losing and gaining powers.<br /><br />(*The demands of continuity eventually turned even those inconsistencies into character history - suddenly, the Hulk was grey with a different personality again!)<br /><br />-seanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-8875613280045207912018-05-28T20:29:25.536+01:002018-05-28T20:29:25.536+01:00Wundarr was a Superman parody from the Man-Thing s...Wundarr was a Superman parody from the Man-Thing series. He was a manchild who imprinted on the Thing. Later, he became the messianic Aquarian, a rather out- of-step transformation in the late 70s Project Pegasus arc.Dougiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03965448821892833703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-46966022355206010832018-05-28T17:15:13.961+01:002018-05-28T17:15:13.961+01:00You've sent me back to OHMU again Charlie. Ap...You've sent me back to OHMU again Charlie. Apparently Loki can do 30 tons, which is typical for a male Asgardian of his age, height and build. He belongs on the Spider-Man shelf and will be one of the stronger ones there once Colossus and the Surfe have been promoted.dangermash aka The Artistic Actuaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15669793446608643884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-53148637064072775492018-05-28T16:10:32.692+01:002018-05-28T16:10:32.692+01:00Dangermash I like the way you think!
Indeed, wh...Dangermash I like the way you think! <br /><br />Indeed, why would they have had Thor fight villains sent over from central casting at Wussy Central? One could rightfully conclude b/c they thought Thor was mild-mannered Don Blake who was ow the equivalent of Charles Atlas in the advertisements in the comic book weight-lifting advertisements, with a funky hammer. <br /><br />I mean, does Loki have super strength? And is not Loki a god too, like Thor? <br /><br />I want my No Prize!!!Charlie Horse 47https://www.blogger.com/profile/00906538705798228800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-50436936369113516642018-05-28T15:26:34.032+01:002018-05-28T15:26:34.032+01:00Some more figures from OHMU. These are the weights...Some more figures from OHMU. These are the weights that heroes can "lift/press" to answer an earlier question.<br /><br />Thor, Herc 100+ tons<br />Hulk 100+ when angry, maybe only 70 calm<br />Wonder Man 95<br />She Hulk 85<br />Thing 85<br />Colossus 70<br />Vision 50 at max density, 5 normally<br />Surfer 100+<br />Valkyrie 45<br />Doc Samson 25<br />Black Bolt 1 or 60 using "electron power"<br />Iron Man 70 or 100+ if attached to suitable power source but only for a few seconds<br />Subby 50 dry, 85 wet<br />Luke Cage 3<br />KaZar no superhuman strength<br />Ghost Rider not in the book!<br /><br />Googling peaceful hippie 1980s superheroes revealed the beardie to be Wundarr the Aquarian. He's not in the book.<br /><br /><br />I'm now thinking Vision and Doc Samson are both too high. In addition to my already existing problems with Iron Man, Colossus, Valkyrie, Surfer. I might have to back down on Black Bolt though - sounds like he's on the right shelf.dangermash aka The Artistic Actuaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15669793446608643884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-78350523404274693682018-05-28T15:25:31.757+01:002018-05-28T15:25:31.757+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.dangermash aka The Artistic Actuaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15669793446608643884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-66612085922693014322018-05-28T15:01:18.528+01:002018-05-28T15:01:18.528+01:00Interesting ideas there Charlie about how Thor was...Interesting ideas there Charlie about how Thor wasn't seen as that strong in the very early days. It would explain why he kept coming up against wusses like the Cobra and Mr Hyde. It might also explain why the Thing vs Hulk fight somewhere around FF #25 was such a big deal. Why wasn’t everyone clamouring for Thor vs Hulk?dangermash aka The Artistic Actuaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15669793446608643884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6263300365798803459.post-30686619659765979342018-05-28T14:36:57.285+01:002018-05-28T14:36:57.285+01:00Wait! I may have an idea!! At least I think I do...Wait! I may have an idea!! At least I think I do!!!<br /><br />Let's assume that the writer's artists understood a Hero's strength based upon the villains he fought?<br /><br />I mean, except Reed Richards using super-intellect and employing the transmorgifier against Galactus or the Overlord, would not the creative team be able to tell a more useful story if the hero and villain were on parity of strength?<br /><br />There's probably a reason Spidey fought Doc Ock, Goblin, Vulture, King Pin and a whole stable of villains without super strength... it's b/c Lee and Ditko never conceived Spidey as having "big" strength. Even dudes like Electro and Motlen Man didn't have super strength?<br /><br />If I recall, I think I got jazzed when Spidey fought the Lizard b/c suddenly we had a villain who was strong... and had a tail!<br /><br />Is it not possible that the Thunder God was initially conceived as having a bag full of tricks he could do with the hammer (read those first stories, lol) but really not much stronger than a dude with a crow bar? Well, my memory is failing know so I have to stop my thesis, LOL!Charlie Horse 47https://www.blogger.com/profile/00906538705798228800noreply@blogger.com