Thanks to Charlie Horse 47 and Killdumpster for their sponsorship of this post, via the magic of Patreon.
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| Image by Tumisu from Pixabay |
Listen. Listen to the footsteps of mystery, as they approach, like some dread phantom on your staircase, as you lie in bed, telling yourself, again and again and again, "It's just my imagination. There can't be a dread phantom on the staircase. There can't be. There can't be!"
And that mystery is, "Just what, exactly, is to be the topic for debate on this night in mid December?"
It's a mystery I cannot resolve. Only you can do that by suggesting a topic for debate, in the comments section below.
Therefore, suggest that topic and let all uncertainty be banished from our staircases.
Before it's too late.
Posts
50 comments:
C’mon someone! Hurry up and post a subject! My fingers are itchy and want to start typing.
In the summer Valletta, Malta's capital, was baking hot. My parents took us to the Britannia, a very cool restaurant (temperature-wise), it being well below street level ( it had fans, too! ) There, my brother & myself had spaghetti, with parmesan cheese on, which we twiddled round our forks, with limited success.
A couple of years later, in Leeds, my mum took my brother & myself to Youngmans, a fish & chip restaurant high above Briggate ( the main Leeds shopping street), where you looked down on pedestrians below. As well as fish & chips, on your tray you got a cup of tea, some buttered bread, and a choice of one of two different chocolate biscuits ( Kit Kat or Breakaway). Youngmans' patrons were mostly elderly people.
Where did your parents take you to eat in the holidays? ( Both my restaurants are now long gone, by the way! )
Phillip
Oh boy… Charlie only remembers one xmas lunch-out and the famous Marshall Fields Walnut room.
3 (?) floors high with a huge xmas tree in the middle.
Going to Marshall Fields on the electric South Shore line from Gary to Chicago was a treat.
Marshall Fields and all the other stores on State Street (of which Frankie Sinatra sings) had huge store windows decorated with moving xmas scenes.
Charlie’s wife’s grandfather was a professional window dresser in Chicago and we have this cool trophy from 1931 (?) for some window-dressing competition he won.
Marshall Fields was acquired by Macy’s in the 1990s or so.
Syntax error - no parmesan was twiddled!
Phillip
That sounds fantastic, Charlie. The UK didn't have anything like that. Leeds's biggest department store, Lewis's, had a Santa's Grotto. Some old guy dressed up as Santa had the kids ask him for whatever Christmas present they wanted. Then, he gave them a cheapo present (?) - I forget. The kids of course didn't realize their parents would have paid to go in the Grotto!
Phillip
And as far as “stores that no longer exist” foes, Mr and Mrs ChRlie saw an exhibition of Chicago’s Department Stores a year ago.
Absolutely unbelievable was the obliteration of all the major stores we knew as kids in the 60s and 70s: Montgomery Wards, Sears, Marshall Fields, Carson Pairie Scott and Co, Woolworths, Goldblatts… and on and on…. Geeze!!!
Charlie - The UK's lost many stores, too. Over here, in popular culture, Woolworths is most associated with its 'pick & mix' - lots of different types of displayed sweets kids could combine in what quantities they wanted, in a bag. ( I never did! ) Some of our lost stores still exist in Europe - e.g. 'C&A' !
Phillip
I have a comic-related discussion starter…
One thing that has always bugged me is how people talk about how superhero teams have "saved us all so often". But how often do they really save the world? And how often does the public hear about it? And how often do they think the superteams have saved the world when there wouldn’t have been a problem if the team hadn't existed (maybe because the villain's main objective is to defeat the superteam, or maybe because the superteam created the villain)?
What happens if we take issues 1-20 of Avengers, FF and X-Men and ask two questions to ask about each issue:
- If the superhero team didn't exist, would the problem still be there?
- Was there any public impact/visibility?
Two possible answers to each question, four possibilities in total : YY, YN, NY, NN. Which gives us four categories to divide these comics into:
1. Genuinely saving and seen to be saving the world/city/public against some menace
2. Saving the world/city/public against some menace but the public doesn't get to find out about it
3. A fight against either someone whose objective is only to defeat the team or a menace the team has created but where, in either case, the world/public/city is endangered and people end up thinking the team has saved them when, actually, there wouldn't have been a danger if the team wasn't there
4. Like 3 but the public aren't endangered and don't get to hear about what's effectively a private fight
Looking through those first 20 issues of each of those 3 comics, I get:
1. Publicly saving: Avengers 5 (Lava Men), 8 (Kang), 18 (Commissar), FF 3 (Miracle Man), 11 (Impossible Man), 12 (Hulk/Sabboteur), 18 (Super Skrull), 20 (Molecule Man), X-Men 1 (Magneto), 2 (Space Phantom), 4 (BofEM), 8 (Unus)
2. Secretly saving: Avengers 12 (Mole Man), 14 (Aliens), FF 1 (Mole Man), 2 (Skrulls), 15 (Thinker), X-Men 9 (Lucifer), 20 (Lucifer)
3. Causing but saving: Avengers 1 (Loki), 6 (MofE), FF 4 (Subby), 8 (Puppet Master)
4. Private fights: Avengers 2 (Space Phantom), 3 (Hulk/ Subby), 4 (Alien/Subby), 7 (MofE), 9 (MofE), 10 (MofE), 11 (Kang), 13 ( Nefaria), 15-16 (MofE), 17 (Mole Man), 19-20 (Swordsman), FF 5 (Doom ), 6 (Doom/Subby), 7 (Kurrgo), 9 (Subby), 10 (Doom), 13 (Red Ghost), 14 (Subby/Puppet Master), 16-17 (Doom), 19 (Rama Tut), X-Men 3 (Blob), 5-7 (BofEM), 10 (Kazar), 11 (BofEM), 12-13 (Juggernaut), 14-16 (Sentinels), 17-18 (Magneto),19 (Mimic)
Some might disagree with some of my classifications but bear with me.
Counting everything up, we have over 60 issues:
1. 12 where everyone's rightly grateful for those teams. Split Avengers three issues, FF five, X-Men four
2. 7 where the public would be grateful if they knew what just happened
3. 4 where they're grateful but shouldn’t be. Jonah Jameson is right to berate the superteams.
4. 37 where nobody except JJJ would care even if they knew what happened
That first set, representing only 20% of these issues is really low and illustrates my point. Do these super teams really deserve the adulation they get in the comics?
Obviously, people are welcome to extend this analysis over more issues or into other titles or (far easier) to speculate over the results. Off the top of my head, I suspect that:
- more FF issues will fall into category 4 as Kirby and Richards get into their stride
- DD and Spider-Man will have a higher proportion of category 1 issues
- Doctor Strange will be almost entirely in categories 2 and 4
Dangermash - Another consideration is does the public even know the team exists? Summoned by the Defenders, Daredevil knows it isn't a trick by his enemies, as the Defenders' existence isn't public knowledge. Likewise, I don't think the New X-Men are known to the public, either.
Phillip
And the likelihood of the Champions being public knowledge is zip!
Phillip
Graviton's Sky Island - a massive chunk of land, uprooted into the air - a potential danger, which must have been public knowledge. Eventually, Wonderman, Thor, Iron Man & the Vision threw the 'collapsed into a White Dwarf' version of the Sky Island into the ocean. Lots of real estate lost there. Said collapse wouldn't have happened if Graviton hadn't been defeated - but he started it. I'd call it honours even.
Count Nefaria - a 'rule the world' type. Nefaria was toppling skyscrapers in New York, so the public would have known about it. The good Count's defeat - a feather in the Avengers' cap, as far as New Yorkers were concerned, surely? But Nefaria's real goal was immortality. If somebody had directed him to the Fountain of Youth - c.f. Ted Sallis/She Hulk - could it have been avoided? 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other.
Korvac - wanted a utopia, but ruled by him. The Avengers decided on humanity's behalf. I've discussed this before. See above rating. Take your pick!
Phillip
"...the Champions being public knowledge is zip!" The Champions had their own comic!!! The public didn't know because the public didn't want to know!!!
Prowler is pushing PUBLISH... NOW!!!
dangermash - It must have taken you weeks compiling that chart of different teams' successes & failures, vis-a-vis villains. I'm a bit hazy on some of the early outings, I'm afraid, but such patterns often continue...A sterling job, regardless!
Phillip
Only took an hour or so. After collecting loads of those Marvel Masterworks in the late 80s, early 90s, I was pretty familiar with this early stuff.
Yeah, they all count as category 1. The Avengers save the world and the world knows they have. But just looking at the comic covers in that #150-200 era, I can see Ultron (created by an Avenger), Grim Reaper (no world threat, only interested in beating the Avengers), The Collector (ditto), all belonging in 3 or. 4.
Just spotted an error in there. X-Men 2 is in the right category but they were up against Vanisher, not Space Phantom.
And the old X-Men too? I was surprised that they had as many as four category 1 issues in their first 20. After saving us from Magneto, Vanisher, Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (who are conquering the republic of San Marco in #4 rather than just attacking X-Men just for kicks) and Unus, they must have been celebrities.
As for Phillip's question about where out parents took us to eat out, eating out was always a big mystery to me. If they wanted to let us eat somewhere different for a change, we might be allowed to munch on sandwiches in the lounge on a Saturday evening.
Good golly DANGERMASH! That is a serious analysis! Excellent! One senses you have a very strong quant side!
But i truptnrefret I got nothing for you because my recollection/knowledge is lacking.
Cheers! Charlie!
Are we even WORTH saving, considering how we are wrecking this planet's biosphere - by 2060 there'll be more plastic in the oceans than fish but the madness continues unabated!
Phillip, my favourite eating out treat as a kid was a Knickerbocker Glory - layers of ice-cream and fruit in a tall glass.
Upon further googling to refresh ChRlie’s 54 year old memories lol, he learned The WALNUT ROOM is america’s oldest department store restaurant,
opening in 1907. And their famous dish is a CHICKEN POT PIE! Sheesh - that’s really a UK dish. Hot dogs, hamburgers and pizza wasn’t invented yet??!
Korvac & the Collector aren't public knowledge. Korvac was disguised as affluent "Michael". His invisibility to even Starhawk's senses ( let alone Joe Public's! ), paradoxically, revealed his presence to the Avengers.
The Collector, in his earlier appearance, disguised himself as Tom Fagan, in turn, in fancy dress as Nighthawk (the Russian dolls trope), at the Rutland parade. So, he isn't public knowledge, either.
The Collector(an "Elder of the Universe")'s abduction of the Avengers related ( in plot terms, at least), to Korvac being in love with his (the Collector's) daughter, Carina Walters. How do you categorize that? Reluctant father-of-the-bride villainy?
Category 2 methinks, for both of those limelight avoiders!
Colin - I once had a Knickerbocker Glory, at a restaurant called 'The Grenadier Grill', on Sliema's seafront. Part of the novelty, for kids, is the incredibly long spoon, for getting deep down into the tall glass!
Phillip
Charlie - That CEO of Campbell Soup declaring their chicken was bio-engineered, makes you wonder what the chicken is, exactly. Plus, the UK media always says the USA has chlorinated chicken ( what exactly is a "chlorinated chicken", I wonder? ) Instead of giving the chickens antibiotics, do they spray them with chlorine? A few years ago, the UK media was saying the chicken in our cheap microwave ready meals was from Thailand, and had something wrong with that. At that rate, you'd never eat anything! Even fish has plastics in it ( c.f. Colin's earlier comment! )
Phillip
Sorry for that random comment - Campbell's soups:
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Food/campbells-defends-soup-calls-executives-alleged-remarks-ingredients/story?id=127841146
The chicken was allegedly 3-D printed, not bio-engineered!
Phillip
Regardless if the origin of the chicken, CHARLIE will take the Mrs to get a chicken pot pie at the Walnut Room. She grew up next to ChicGo as well. What’s weirder is the wife of Charlie’s beastie from the Army has started a side hustle selling chicken pot pies to delis, bakers, etc. north of ChicGo this year. She’s a hustler!
Charlie - I'm certain the Walnut Room, with its pedigree going back 1907, would only serve the finest cuts of chicken, fit for a gourmet no less! Please consume your fowl with confidence, savouring every delicious morsel!
Phillip
Charlie, I do enjoy your comical spelling mistakes - I assume you meant your bestie from the army not your beastie.
Festive tunes I heard in Tesco this morning...
Step Into Christmas - Elton John
Merry Christmas - Elton John & Ed Sheeran
In Dulci Jubilo - Mike Oldfield
Stop The Cavalry - Jona Lewie
Little Saint Nick - Beach Boys
Step into Christmas
The admission's free...
Yes, the admission is free but the rest of it isn't - Tesco is charging £10 for a Tunis cake which is basically a Madeira cake with some icing on top. I remember we had one for Christmas when I was about 10 and I was disappointed there was no buttercream filling in the middle!
Our modern chicken originates from the red jungle fowl of south-east Asia so chicken from Thailand is more authentic!
Phillip, last year the right-wing press was ranting about "woke sandwich fillings" if you can believe it!
Colin - Publicity about Tunis cakes, last Christmas, had me seek one out. They were sold out, unfortunately. However, if they're rubbish, it's just as well I didn't bother! Prior to last year, Tunis cakes weren't on my radar at all!
Phillip
A chocolate yule log is nicer than a Tunis cake, Phillip. Or some mince pies.
On the subject of mince pies - I've been thinking that bringing back some of the medieval meat content might be quite tasty, perhaps a combination of chicken or pork and modern mincemeat in a pie.
Is the UK’s STEELEYE SPAN’s GAUDETTE charting again this xmas??? Great stuff!!!
Phillip -
I grew up in a small market town and there wasn’t anywhere memorable to eat. I do remember my very first hamburger though: my Dad took me to London and we went to the London Dungeon, then went to a Wimpy.
When we moved to a much bigger town there wasn’t anywhere essential, but my Mum used to like the cafe in a big department store.
For the first few years, there wasn’t a McDonalds or similar there, but there was a burger place called ‘Bumpers’ in the big supermarket and we’d go there sometimes. Then a McDonalds came along and that was that.
Matthew - When I was 6 or 7(?), my family visited London, staying with my auntie Rose & uncle Bruce, at their flat in Brixton. From their flat, central London's skyline was visible, and I remember being surprised at the high rise towers.I thought 'skyscrapers' (as I described them) only existed in America! The Tower of London was also an experience. "Bloody" was a swear word, so as a little child, you weren't to say it; but you could say "The Bloody Tower" ! As young kids, we found repeating "The Bloody Tower" highly amusing ( little things please little minds! ) Being dinosaur nuts, we also loved the Natural History museum. I went to London again, aged 11 - both times I was highly impressed. We had a burger in a Burger King, off Piccadilly Circus, and enjoyed it. More recently, I had a Burger King burger ( about 15 years ago), and found it absolutely revolting, with lots of hard bits of gristle in it. Standards were much better in the past!
My home town's a small market town, too - Leeds is the nearest big city.
Phillip
Phillip and Dangermash, thanks for the topics.
The only eating place I remember visiting more than once during holidays was Pablo's ice cream parlour in Blackpool. Although, oddly, I don't think we ever actually had any ice cream there.
I'm thinking, now, that not saving the world, in his early days, was Spider-Man's big mistake. People would probably have had a far greater liking for him if he had. He did defeat the Tinkerer and his "aliens" but that was in a shop's cellar. So, nobody knew anything about it.
Charlie (?), Gaudete is, so far, nowhere to be seen on the current UK singles chart.
As a kid my mum and dad used to take my brother and myself to the local Italian cafe "Toni's" for a birthday Knickerbocker glory ". Other places were British Home Stores cafe for a strawberry gateaux and Lewises Glasgow, for Christmas lunch. In Glasgow there was an iconic store called Goldberg's where we would go at Christmas to see Santa then to their restaurant for a bit to eat.
Paul - Lewis's sounds like a franchise, with one in Glasgow as well as Leeds! The Sheffield equivalent was Coles, wasn't it Steve?
Phillip
Lewis' had stores in most large UK cities, London, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham etc. I would be very surprised if they didn't have a store in Sheffield. The Glasgow store was massive , 7 large floors where you could buy almost anything ( including comics). Lewis' closed in 1991 here to be replaced by Debenhams who closed in 2010.
Phillip, Coles was indeed Sheffield's branch of Lewis's and changed its name to Lewis's in its later years. Sadly, it's no longer open and the building's empty. I think the only department store still open in the centre of Sheffield now is the independently-owned Atkinsons.
Last week Radio 3 had a series of programmes about Christmas in the Middle Ages and Steeleye Span's Gaudete got played but, as Steve said, it doesn't make the UK chart nowadays. It was a Top 20 hit when first released in 1973 though. There was also an interesting version of Gaudete released by the pop duo Erasure in 2013 which had a great video.
Phillip, I didn't mean to put you off Tunis cakes but a tenner for a tarted-up Madeira cake is ridiculous and there nicer things to spend your money on at this time of year. I'm planning to buy some dates and Tesco is also selling mini Christmas cakes, small enough to eat in one go.
My Grandparents lived in Earls Court when I was little (the flat came with their jobs - they weren’t rich or posh!) so I visited the Natural History Museum a lot - it’s still my absolute favourite place in London.
Anything reasonable (particularly mini-Christmas cakes) sells out fast, Colin. My Christmas stuff's going to be done, today/tomorrow, if at all possible. Also, it'll get manic in the shops!
Phillip
Philip, The shops are already manic in Glasgow but I hope to get my Christmas food shopping done on Friday as well. We have a late guest coming for Christmas dinner that's a vegetarian and it's been a total pain trying to get stuff for her, not the lack of items just sell by dates are before the big day ( and can't be frozen) just hoping I don't have to make her something from scratch..
Paul - My brother's a vegan. I get some vegetable burgers, bread cakes, & soya milk in, the day before he arrives (Dec 20th) then, after the first night, he sorts himself out. Arriving on X-mas day - that's a problem! Nevertheless, virtually any meat product - burgers, sausages, mince, fake chicken nuggets, you name it - is available in Quorn, which can be frozen, then heated up in the microwave ( I eat whatever Quorn product is discounted, all the time, and I'm not even a true vegetarian.) Give her a variety of those, with Brussels sprouts, and a sprig of holly on top of it! It's either that or the infamous nut cutlet!
Phillip
Paul, my father was born in 1927 and grew up in Glasgow. He said that Christmas Day was just a normal working day when he was a boy - according to Wikipedia Christmas Day didn't become a holiday in Scotland until 1958.
Vegetarians are used to eating veggies Paul! I would not go out of the way for that one guest as long as there is a base of potatoes, beans (legumes), or rice to throw the veggies on. ( From lots of experience!)
Charlie's made a good point - rice! Packets of microwaveable rice are a fantastic standby - only costing about 65p, and ready in about a minute! Even a non-vegetarian can use them to save money on takeaways!
Phillip
That's right Colin, I remember my dad saying he used to work Christmas day. Of course the reason was down to religious nonsense with the old Scottish gov after the reformation viewing it as unChristian (and a catholic celebration) holiday involving drinking and "partying" at Christmas . Thankfully that changed.
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