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Posts
24 comments:
Value for money - re comics.
As a kid, how did you define value for money? Was it:
a.) Getting a surprisingly good comic at an incredibly low price - e.g. in a second hand sale, or as part of a 'job lot'.
b.) An anthology comic, in which every single story was good, with no duds (or almost none!)
c.) A single comic, which was so good, you read it over & over again, to squeeze every last drop of enjoyment out of it.
d.) Some other criteria?
So, the topic is: How did you define value for money - and which comic (or comics) were your best value purchases - or acquisitions - as a kid....
Phillip
I wasn’t terribly concerned with value for money, to be honest. Comics were also pretty cheap on the scale of stuff to buy (compared to books or occasionally records etc) so given the level of enjoyment I got out of them, they were nearly always a win.
When something came along that was a stone cold classic, but cost the same as any other comic - there was a Saturday morning where I picked up both Daredevil 230 AND Swamp Thing 48 - that was amazing. That felt like I had the cheapest but most satisfying hobby in existence.
There was a market stall that did old comics half price - picked up a few Sienkiewicz Moon Knights there - but they always write the price on the front in biro which was annoying.
What anthology did I get that was solid gold from start to finish…? Maybe the first couple of A1s? Warrior 11?
Hmm, point taken, Matthew. That being said, we can all remember titles which went through a 'fallow period', when the quality definitely dropped, for quite a few issues. So, compared to previous issues, we felt like possibly 'leaving' that title. Nevertheless, you've made some great points, that I hadn't considered.
Phillip
Thanks for the topic, Phillip.
I think my definition of value for money was entirely down to page count. The more pages, the better value. Also, if the covers were glossy and the pages were in colour, it didn't hurt. Therefore, my ultimate value-for-money comics were the DC 100-pagers, even if at least 80% of each one was reprinted material.
Matthew, you're right about comics being cheap. When I first started reading them, you could get 20 for £1.
Indeed. The reason comics were the greatest art form of the second half of the twentieth century is that they were cheap - for pennies you could enter another world created by working class geezers like Jack Kirby with just pen and paper; or pick up the latest prog with stories by John Wagner and Mike McMahon, Pat Mills and Kevin O'Neill or Alan Moore and Ian Gibson.
And then of course there were all the gloriously terrible comics, from Son of Satan to Haunted Tank.
And they were away from the mainstream - in the early 80s buying Warrior in a corner shop got you the latest episodes of Marvelman and V for Vendetta! It was like being in on some secret, and at the time what better way was there of spending 50p?
Unfortunately the 80s comic boom turned out to be basically the gentrification of the form, and we ended up with glossy computer coloured 'graphic novels'...
-sean
So... a value proposition in the early 1970s:
1) Just finding the dam comic on the spinner, if you had been a faithful follower of a series. I think I've mentioned not seeing the Avengers from issues 94 through 99 and suddenly finding 100 on the spinner!
2) As STEVE mentioned, the 100-page giants from DC. So much GOLDEN AGE for so little money. I never bought these for the original story; it was always for the GA reprints! Never understood why Marvel bailed on this concept which is what MARVEL TALES and MARVELS GREATEST were before becoming Spidey and FF focused.
Good question PHILLIP! Much more interesting than asking, "Will West Ham avoid relegation?!"
I've recounted this story a couple of times but I was obsessed with Planet of the Apes, generally as a kid, but frustratingly the local newsagents only seemed to had #4 of the comic. Issues 20 onwards did appear for sale, but I missed all of the original movie adaptation and the early Jason and Alexander stories. During a holiday in Cornwall, at the time #41 was current, the local general store has issues 3, and 8 to 19 for sale at 2p per copy. I purchased the lot and you spent the two week holiday marvelling that I'd obtained such valuable commodities. While I liquidated most of my collection in the early 90s (which funded my original trip to Australia) I kept the first 50 issues of POTA weekly until literally a few weeks ago. We're currently planning to downsize and I finally donated them to a charity shop. judging by the look of nostalgia on the charity shop manager's face, I suspect they may not make it to the shop floor.
DW
Best value collections were probably the first dozen Treasury Editions. Seeing a lot or early Kirby/Ditko/Romita/Busema etc. in glorious, oversized colour, seemed very special. 100 pages for 50p. Valuetastic!
DW
DW -
I love that story. I still literally dream of days like that. I actually have dreams, as a grown man, about buying piles of comics.
Sean -
I kind of enjoyed riding the wave of the late eighties comics boom: it was as though the thing I was into through my early teens that no-one else was interested in was suddenly the coolest thing on Earth, just as I was turning 16. And we did get some great comics into the bargain. Shame it had such a hideous hangover in the early 90s, though.
And yeah, you ended up paying £££s for a single issue instead of 30p.
Very interesting thoughts, from everybody.
I certainly relate to Sean's point about comic buying being like 'being in on a secret'. Discovering, by chance, the son of one of my mum's friends had a Rampage Weekly issue, instantly made him a 'blood brother'/fellow traveller, way back when.
At least Son of Satan teamed up Sal & Bob McLeod! Haunted Tank's very unusual shade of green, on certain covers, evokes an unknown mid-70s memory, which won't surface (for some reason).
Treasury Editions were 'newsstand absent', in my youth - although I picked up a few at marts in the 1990s. Boy, what luxury items (although colouring was a little dull, sometimes).
I suppose the nearest page-count value to the DC 100 pagers, in my meagre experience, was the Marvel Digest Pocket books, offering 52 pages for little more than the a weekly's price, and much, much less than a monthly's.
Downsizing's something I'm putting off - for now!
I'm afraid I missed the late 80s comics boom!
For me, as a little kid, value for money also lay in the nature of the title. For example, Marvel's two biggest stars were Spidey & the Hulk (each with their own uk comic.)
Yet, in the Defenders, you got the Hulk, plus lots of others superheroes, all in one story. Hence, value for money (to a little kid).
Also, Marvel's hype, saying 'a book length thriller, every week', for Rampage Weekly, & the Complete Fantastic Four, made little kids think they were getting more, when it was actually the same page-count as MWOM & Spidey.
Phillip
When I started buying US Marvel comics they cost 10p each and later rose to 12p, then 15p, then 20p, then 25p, then 30p. Comics were cheap entertainment at first but they were shooting up in price by the early '80s.
Sean, thanks for that link to the Volgon invasion of Britain in 2000AD. Very interesting - and the newsreader was clearly based on Angela Rippon.
Value in comics? First off I'd agree with Matthew, comics as a form just seemed a better deal than other entertainment sources. Even US network tv at the time, although free, was limited: if you unfortunately missed a show, you were out of luck for months if not years. With comics, you could always revisit the story; and if you were fortunate enough (as I was) to have a comic shop nearby, you could fill in those gaps from Charlie's unpredicatable spinner racks.
As for the books, I always liked the Giants; whether "Giant Size So-and-So", a treasury edition, an Annual, or even the occasional digest (great ways to pick up vintage Disney stories, or Archie tales). Loved them all, but had a special fondness for Annuals- generally featuring a special new story, guest stars, special features and pin-ups. And only 25 cents originally; then 50 cents, and 1.00, which was still a good deal for the content).
Phillip:
Great topic!
Charlie, your mention of finding new issues of certain comics after a seemingly long absence reminds me that due to the vagaries of newsstand distribution, some titles always seemed to be harder to find than others. I rarely missed an issue of MARVEL TEAM-UP, THE AVENGERS, IRON MAN etc, but finding a brand-new issue of JUNGLE ACTION (with the latest installment of ‘Panther’s Rage’) or ASTONISHING TALES (featuring Deathlok) on the spinner rack seemed like a special treat.
Similarly, any b/w comics magazine I’d find out in the wild was practically an Instant Impulse Buy. Four-color floppies were great, sure, but they were relatively plentiful and easy to acquire compared to the scarcity of their larger b/w cousins. I recall seeing ads for mags like MONSTERS UNLEASHED, SAVAGE TALES and DEADLY HANDS OF KUNG FU but never finding a physical copy of ‘em for sale at any of my usual haunts. And then, I happened to check out this one liquor store I hadn’t tried before, and lo and behold, there on the bottom shelf of the magazine rack was a copy of PLANET OF THE APES #1, with its gorgeously ugly Bob Larkin cover painting and square spine — it didn’t look like any comic I’d ever seen before — and it was a First Issue, to boot! As far as real ‘value’, of course, it was all an illusion. The thing cost as much as four standard comics, and only contained about 40 pages of actual story and art, the other 44 pages filled with ‘Photos and Features’ (articles) and ads. But I loved the format, LOVED IT.
In the following months, I picked up DEADLY HANDS and SAVAGE SWORD OF CONAN fairly regularly at that same Liquor Store, and also started seeing the Warren horror mags around town at various places too. EERIE 59 sold for a full $1.25, which seemed like a small fortune back then, but it was a massive 100 pages, a full 80 of which were packed with the sexy sword-and-sorcery art of Esteban Maroto, with a nifty Ken Kelly painting on the front, and an awesome Sanjulian cover on the back. WORTH EVERY PENNY.
Red: yes, I felt the same way about the ‘GIANT SIZE’ books, and Annuals too. I’d only been collecting comics for a few months when GIANT-SIZE SUPER-STARS #1 burst onto the scene, and I totally fell for the hype. Again, as far as genuine ‘value’, it probably didn’t ACTUALLY delivery more ‘bang for your buck’, but I sure loved that comic (still do). And I quickly got into the habit of snatching up every GIANT-SIZE Marvel title. Some were better than others — GS DRACULA and GS WEREWOLF were usually pretty mediocre (sometimes downright bad) but GS CONAN was a dependably fantastic package, with the superb Thomas/Kane/Sutton ‘Hour of the Dragon adaptation up front and early Barry Smith classics in the back.
Even when they went ‘All Reprint’, the GS titles could be excellent value. GS X-MEN 2, packed with Thomas/Adams/ Palmer Sentinels stories, GS CAPTAIN MARVEL 1 with cool Thomas/ Kane / Adkins era stuff and GS POWER-MAN 1 with a great 3-part ‘Hero For Hire’ story featuring dynamic Billy Graham art — all were awesome.
Another kind of ‘value’ : whenever a Favorite Artist drew a surprise fill-in on a monthly title. Much as I loved John Buscema’s work, seeing Neal Adams’ art in CONAN #37 was pretty mind-blowing. And for the same price as a George Tuska IRON MAN or a Don Heck SUB-MARINER, a measly 20 cents — that seemed like a REAL value back in 1974. Anytime Gene Colan would return to DAREDEVIL for the occasional fill-in during Bob Brown’s run was a treat. And though Gulacy’s run on MASTER OF KUNG FU made his reputation, people tend to forget that he had difficulty cranking out a monthly book in the early days, and that any given issue was more likely to be drawn by Ron Wilson or Sal Buscema than Gulacy. So whenever you’d pick up the latest issue, and find that Gulacy DID draw it — hooray!
b.t.
b.t. - Do you remember, during Bob Brown's Daredevil run, one issue was inked by Gulacy? It stands out, from all the rest of the run, as one terrific piece of inking. Specifically, the issue with the Black Widow about to use lethal force on a petty hood, and Daredevil forcefully stopping her before she goes too far, thus precipitating the end of their partnership.
Uncharacteristically, Gulacy didn't shoe-horn any movie stars, like Dietrich or Bogart, into that issue!
Phillip
Phillip, I know that issue of DD (108) well. With Guest Villain The Beetle, first appearance of the Black Spectre gang and Foggy’s niece Candace Nelson. I agree that Gulacy’s inks elevated Brown’s pencils nicely. And though he didn’t sneak any movie star likenesses into the art, Gulacy absolutely went to town on the Widow’s mascara, giving her a somewhat ‘Twiggy’ like appearance ;)
b.t.
Anon (Matthew?), I'm not really knocking the 80s comic boom in terms of the actual comics. I mean, the first thing I ever bought in a comic shop was Sabre by Don McGregor and Paul Gulacy, which at the time seemed really exciting, back when the most interesting regular comic was probably the all new, all different X-Men.
Fast forward five years or so - to when regular monthlies included the Moore-era Swamp Thing and Simonson's Thor, and new independent publishers were putting out titles like American Flagg - obviously that was a massive improvement.
Its the change in the economics really - I didn't mind paying a bit more for comics which were much better than what I'd been reading before, but post-Watchmen it suddenly became apparent there wasn't really the talent around to justify the hype, let alone the new and over-priced formats. A good example would be IPC publishing a 'mature' mag like Crisis (when they didn't even have the artists to keep up the quality of 2000AD).
I have to say A1 was another case in point. Sorry, there was some alright work in it, but as a whole it was a bit too 'coffee table' for me.
-sean
Charlie
I reckon West Ham lose to Everton on Saturday and sack Moyes. They then appoint either Allardyce, Dyche or Benitez. They continue to lose and get relegated. I save $25 per month on Optus sports and wait the year or two for them to get promoted. Meanwhile Arsenal win the title and whole new generation of 'fans' choose them as 'their' team. JD Sports sell a lot of Saka shirts and Big Sam negotiates his release clause to be paid in fish heads.
DW
Apologies to Steve and Colin for going off topic, again.
DW
I missed the anthology question. I agree Warrior was great with at least three excellent stories per issue (Marvelman, V for Vendetta, Laser Eraser, Zirk etc.) Simultaneously, Marvel UK's Daredevils was good, with Captain Britain, Miller Daredevil and all Inside Comics articles and back-ups. If you count anthologies done by the same creator or regales then Love & Rockets, Eightball and Optic Nerve were consistently good. And Drawn and Quarterly volume two (6 issues?) was excellent.
DW
Weellll... having had a go at A1 its only fair to knock Warrior too - I think its easy to look back on it with rose-tinted glasses DW, but dare I suggest without a certain writer it wouldn't have had anything like the same impact?
I can't remember the last time I heard anyone reminiscing fondly about Father Shandor or the Spiral Path, and surely the only reason anyone would be enthusiastic about Laser Eraser is the first couple of episodes (Steve Dillon seemed to lose his enthusiasm for it fairly quickly)...
If anyone can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and not win the premiership after being eight points clear in mid-January its Arsenal. Not to be a jinx or anything...
-sean
Sean -
The other strips in Warrior were like quite nice side dishes at a restaurant: yes, those two main dishes were the focus, but the garnish was also pleasing. Spiral Path had nice art. Father Shandy had a mild frisson of the perverse whenever Jaramsheela was cock-teasing him. Madman was unreadable but interestingly so.
And it did feature the Bojeffries Saga occasionally. That was good.
I do agree on the lack of supply to meet the demand around 1988-1990. In the US they were banging out monthly comics by Jamie Delano and Pete Milligan and Grant Morrison - none of whom are writers I'd especially look out for. With some very average art, as well. I was rooting around in the loft yesterday and came across my trade of the first issues of Hellblazer. Story by Delano, art by John Ridgeway. That combo is never going to set the world on fire.
F***king Crisis was the most boring comic I've ever bought. I stuck with it for a year or so, mainly for The New Statesmen, but it was completely dead on arrival. I can't believe it lasted as long as it did.
We can definitely agree on Crisis Matthew. On Warrior... tbh, I was more trying to be realistic about it, having been a bit down on A1. Basically I think it had flaws we tend to ignore, but thats more forgivable in a mag that costs 50p.
And you're right, the Spiral Path did look good.
Having been perhaps overly critical in this thread, I'm actually going to speak up for Jamie Delano's Hellblazer. Sure, you could tell he was finding his way a bit here and there as a writer - especially once he had a few issues under his belt and had to keep 'em coming - but on the whole I liked it.
John Ridgeway's work is very old-school-British-boys-comic, and I can see why some people aren't impressed. But I thought that worked well for Hellblazer, giving it a sense of place - his London felt authentic - and there was a noticeable drop off in quality once he was gone.
Mind you, I do recall Delano's World Without End from DC - with John Higgins - being a major disappointment.
And I never liked anything by Grant Morrison MBE.
Fair point on Peter Milligan too. He never did a lot for me either unless he was working with Brendan McCarthy, and in that partnership it definitely seemed like the artist was doing the heavy lifting.
-sean
PS That wasn't actually quite right about Peter Milligan. I did like his 'The Dead' in 2000AD. But again, that was really down to the artist - it must have been the last really good work by Massimo Belardinelli.
-sean
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