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31 comments:
Comics artists that you didn’t like at first but do now. Also — comics artists that you liked way back when but now, not so much.
b.t.
b.t.
What a timely question for Charlie who is in the middle of an existential comic-book artist crisis.
John Romita Sr.
I loved his work on the Spideys during the late 60s
Then, doing my homework for SDC's 50-years-ago today, I started rereading my Cap America's from 50 years ago, notably the 3-4 issue series featuring the Grey Gargoyle. I truly had not read them in 50 years.
Suddenly, I noticed JR's art seemed Frank Robbins-ish.
You advised that Caniff was a strong influence for both Robbins and Romita and the sense of JR's style on Cap made sense. BUT - I don't recall his art on Spidey mirroring Caniff 4-5 years earlier. (I haven't read those in 50 years either.)
So, Charlie is not so sure how he feels about JR. 50 years ago I thought he was the bomb. Now, I feel, like with Robbins that the Caniff style belonged in newspaper strips or perhaps a book like the Shadow but not on superheroes.
Oh what a terrible world it is when we revisit our childhood heroes and suddenly we aren't so sure.
CH-47 "C" models
(Got the idea for a topic from Redartz’ blog a week or two before he retired it — thanks, Red!)
I didn’t much care for Alex Toth’s stuff at first but I gradually began to appreciate his work the more I saw of it. A 6-pager called ‘If I Were King’ in RED CIRCLE SORCERY 9 got my attention and started turning my opinion around. It had his usual ‘flat’, graphic, almost cartoon-looking stylization but was also densely immersive, with lots of deep, beautifully designed black areas and the page layouts were sophisticated and fascinating. There was a short run of Warren’s CREEPY mag a little while later where it seemed he had a new story in almost every issue, no two exactly alike and each one a revelation. By the early 80s I was a devoted fan. He was mostly retired by that point but every now and then he’d do something new (like those ‘Fox’ back-ups in Red Circle’s BLACK HOOD or that one BLACKHAWK fill-in, inked by Giacoia) and my fellow Toth fans and I would ‘Ooh’ and ‘Aah’ over them. A friend of mine had a Toth Checklist that he’d xeroxed from a friend’s copy, so I ran off a copy for myself and spent many hours scouring comics shops looking for back issues with buried Toth Treasures.
Don Heck and George Tuska both had mediocre-to-poor reputations among comics fans when I first started collecting, and they both certainly had their ups and downs. Heck especially was considered a rather tepid Superhero artist, and as an inker his work often looked rushed, scratchy and sloppy. He inked an issue of THE AVENGERS over layouts by John Buscema (clearly one of his over-the weekend last-minute jobs) that I HATED at first glance, but I kept going back to it. On second or third read, it just suddenly clicked for me. The energy and spontaneity of both artists’ work seemed to mesh really well and I started appreciating Heck’s work a lot more from then on. Also, MARVEL TRIPLE ACTION was reprinting his Avengers comics around the same time (inked by Frank Giacoia) and while they were never as dynamic as Buscema or Kirby, they were solid and stylish.
Tuska definitely went through periods when he was seemed to be on auto-pilot, cranking out the pages without much thought or care. And being inked by Colletta and Esposito on much of his output didn’t do him any favors. But every now and then he’d go a little above and beyond his usual stock poses and compositions, or be paired up with an inker who’d add a slightly slicker finish or a welcome bit of texture and/or atmosphere (Klaus Janson, Frank Chiaramonte, Jack Abel, Dave Hunt, and especially Billy Graham on the Luke Cage stories) and it made a world of difference.
b.t.
Charlie:
I sympathize with your plight. At a certain point I suddenly realized I wasn’t QUITE as blown away by Neal Adams’ work as I had been as a NewFan.
As for Romita possibly being better suited to Comic strips : you must have seen examples of the Spider-Man newspaper strips he did at some point, yes? They’ve been reprinted several times over the years. Much as I love his work generally — especially on Spidey and the gang — I confess the newspaper strips leave me a bit cold.
b.t.
Dang, I almost forgot — I actually didn’t like Jack Kirby much when I first got into comics. I know, heresy, right?
He was at DC doing Kammandi, Mister Miracle and The Demon and I thought his stuff looked too weird and unrealistic, with the boxy faces and square fingers and squiggle shapes all over the place (and I thought Mike Royer’s inks looked sloppy). I started seeing his 60s Marvel stuff reprinted in MARVEL’S GREATEST, MARVEL DOUBLE FEATURE and MARVEL SPECTACULAR and liked it, and it made me dislike his ‘current’ works even more. As if his work had declined considerably over time. It took me awhile to realize his 70s stuff wasn’t ‘Worse’ it was just ‘Different’. And these days I love Royer’s inks over Kirby just as much as Sinnott or Giacoia.
I’ve mentioned before that I actively disliked Kubert back in the day, had a ‘Lightbulb’ moment at some point and realized what a silly, silly fool I’d been for all those years.
Liked ‘Em Then, Think They’re ‘Meh’ Now — Burne Hogarth. Our local library had two of those deluxe Tarzan hardbacks he did in the 70s, and I thought they were super-cool. They look weirdly alien and vaguely repellent to me now.
b.t.
b.t. Re: Hogarth
I have a hunch few know his work anymore?
Like you, those big hardback Tarzans from around 1973 blew my mind. He was the best of the best.
And i still have that book! My aunt and uncle bought it for me in London.
I did go back and re-look at it about 5 years ago and it did not have the effect as 45 years earlier. It was still superior mind you but i think i found the inks a bit heavy?
Thanks for the topic, bt.
And I have to agree with you in both cases. When it comes to artists I didn't like in my younger days but appreciate now, I also have to go for Jack Kirby. I actually liked his 1970s non-super-hero work but his 1960s Marvel super-hero stuff actively repelled me. It all seemed too stiff and anatomically inaccurate for my liking.
Nowadays, I look at his work on things like Thor and the Fantastic Four and it looks amazing to me.
It's also the reverse when it comes to Neal Adams. I loved his work, as a kid but, now, although I can still recognise its quality, it tends to leave me cold on an emotional level.
ALEX NINO. Thought it was the craziest, ugliest comics art I’d ever seen. Sean will hate this, but yes, even those Space Voyagers stories in the back pages of RIMA THE JUNGLE GIRL. Well, I was almost half right — those are some crazy looking pages. And some of it IS kinda ugly. But it’s all pretty magical, too. ‘Otherworldly’ might be the best way to describe it.
Here’s one for you UK folks — Mick McMahon. When the British Comics Invasion was first happening in the early 80s, it was probably inevitable that Dave Gibbons and Brian Bolland were the first to make a big impression on American fans, with their superb draftsmanship and slick rendering. I absolutely didn’t care for McMahon’s odd, super-stylized figures. Kevin O’Neill too — his stuff looked kinda EVIL actually, l’as if just looking at it would leave a black mark on your soul or something. Took quite awhile to get used to both of them, but they’re favorites now.
b.t.
Frank Robbins: My first memory of Franks work was as a writer on Batman and then one day I saw his art on a Man Bat tale in “Detective Comics” issue 416. I seriously thought this is the guy that writes these stories so he must write them in a poorly drawn comic format for other artists to draw and someone published this in error (I was of course wrong he was an artists as well as a writer) . The next time I saw his art was on DCs Shadow issue 7 and I really liked it. Then he moved to Captain America & the Falcon” my favourite comic at the time and I was (fanboy) outraged his art to me then looked awful like a poor cartoon. He then worked on Morbius and other comics at MARVEL and my opinion on his art didn’t change (manic, rough and ugly) then when he moved to the “Invaders” comic all I can say is “ I got it”. Since then I have collected anything he has done from his (few) black and white Marvel mags to “ Man from Atlantis” and I’ve loved every one of them (even those Captain America comics) .I know I know you all still think he’s “pants”
Tom Sutton: My earliest memory of Tom’s art was drawing “Not Brand Ecch” strips and Inking Gil Kane’s Warlock, I wasn’t a fan. Then I saw his Planet of the Apes art in UK POTA comic followed m by his work on Morbius (I think in Vampire Tales) etc. N Been a big fan ever since.
George Tuska. It would be unfair to say I ever really disliked his art but it never really inspired me to seek out his comics. But he did some great work on the Avengers (in a Captain America dream sequence) in issue 106 and on Teen Titans when inked by Nick Cardy.
Alex Toth. Can’t believe I ever disliked this guy was a genius. Toth is another artist (along with Robbins) that I always pick up when I see his work a grumpy bugga but just a brilliant artist. .
Alex Nino: Yep, I honestly didn’t like his art when I first saw it in a Warren comic, it looked strange almost underground and it hurt me eyes trying to follow the story. Then I saw his back up tales in comics like DCs “Rima” etc (Space Voyagers) and that all changed. - Bad enough I didn’t like Toth but not liking Alex Nino as well is I unforgivable for a so called comic fan (I am fair ashamed) .
As much as it pains me Neal Adams (a my all-time favourite artist) kinda lost the plot during his Continuity comics phase when he was still relatively young . His work in recent years on “Batman Odyssey” etc art wise has been mixed with some signs of the old magic he had but tending to focus on too many open mouthed and gritted teeth panels with his work at times morphing into a sub Mort Drucker style . But he is 80 now and is still a legend. .
In the category of artists I initially didn't care for: Gil Kane. As a young, inexperienced, unenlightened comics fan, I found Kane's work repetitive and off-putting. Especially was annoyed by the frequency of his covers on Marvel's titles of the time. But within a few years, my opinion switched. I came to admire his style, his dynamic figures, his clean line work. And paired with the right inker ( Romita, Adams, Janson) he's stellar.
For part 2 of our discussion: count me among those who name Neal Adams. Still like his work and recognize his importance, but he just doesn't appeal to me as much now. At least his more recent work...
Good topic, B.T.!
I didn't immediately take to early Frank Miller(specifically his first couple of Daredevil issues). It then popped into focus (around the Hulk/Doc Ock/origin issues, and then improved even more, once he started writing. Since then I've always loved his work, even the piss-take Dark Knight sequel. Admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of his most recent work, and understand he's possibly now lost the plot. Or perhaps lost it and since re-found it. Either way, the bulk of his 70s, 80, and 90s output is fantastic.
Billy the Sink went from a fairly pedestrian Adams clone to one of the most creative artists in the medium. Insert obligatory Big Numbers reference here...
I also thought David Mazzucchelli stared quite mundanely before significantly stepping up for Born Again and Year One, and then again with his post Marvel/DC work.
DW
I originally liked my post but have since gone off it, given the poor grammar. I'm not an artists, however.
I meant to add Howard Chaykin to my list of artists tha I liked but not so much now as well. I agree with Matthew his work after Flagg for the most part, looks lifeless.
I'm a surprised some folk don't like Alan Davis as much as they used to (I've read that on a few other blogs) I think he's an artists that has gotten better as he has gotten older.
RED: Totally agree Kane with Romita inking his work looks amazing.
I still get that buzz looking at Neal Adams older art (not the collected recoloured stuff) It was probably Adams that kept me interested in comics so long - As far as comic book art is concerned no one has done it better for me that Neal Adams did in his prime.
Another artist I am no longer a fan of is Mike Grell. I loved his Legion of Superhero and Warlord art but from John Sable (maybe before that) onwards I found it was so samey and a bit bland.
Billy Sink (took me a while to suss out what you meant there- good one) I actually preferred is Neal Adams clone stage but his newer style still as good for me.
b.t - totally a get your comment on Kevin O'Neil I thought the same in that to h me his art looks a bit "spooky" - loved Kevin's Wally Wood like cartooning as well
Ahh Mike McMahon - I always liked his art but his more stylised art I absolutely love, wish he would do more stuff.
McScotty, et al.
Chaykin - as a kid I dug his Scorpion cover (and innards?) at Atlas. I next saw him in American Flagg and thought it was weird... but so was Flagg so it fit.
His later work on Blackhawks I really did not like. When you can't tell who's who nor what's happening... what's the point.
Adams - Loved his work on X-Men and Avengers around 50 years + ago. The Continuity stuff... I had the experience I did with Chaykin. Couldn't tell who's who or what was going on.
Kirby - the few FF's I remember seeing as kid like 8 -9 years old... I really felt it was from another universe. Kind of like "This is for adults" because it was so well done and detailed. His late 60s run... can't get enough of.
Artists whose styles and/or drawing abilities change radically over time (for better or worse), that’s a whole ‘nuther thing. Looking at David Muzuchelli’s stuff, from where he was at the start of his comics career to where he ended up, is a perfect example — you almost can’t believe that art came out of the same human being. That was a case of an artist deliberately pushing his own boundaries, and actively exploring other forms of expression. Same with Miller, McMahon, Sienkiewicz, and many others, to varying degrees.
Folks like Mike Grell, Howard Chaykin, John Byrne, Jim Starlin, Paul Gulacy, Bernie Wrightson, Neal Adams — And Joe Kubert, John Romita, John Buscema too — and Alan Davis, Dave Gibbons and Brian Bolland — I almost feel like they ‘peaked’ relatively early in their careers, and settled into certain comfortable formulas that worked well for them, and allowed them to make a living within the framework of commercial Comics Art for decades, without feeling the need to be constantly innovating or evolving. In some cases, if their stuff seemed to be less energetic and exciting after awhile, that early ‘spark’ of creativity and enthusiasm faded out over time, well, it’s to fault anyone for that.
b.t.
Bt and McScotty, I think I hated Alex Nino's work the very first time I clapped eyes on it but, after that, I loved it and still do.
Sadly, Mick McMahon never grew on me. He was just too wild for my tidy mind.
Kevin O'Neill, I didn't have a strong opinion about, either way.
McScotty, I've always had a deep love for the work of Tom Sutton. His efforts for Charlton especially appealed to me.
Redartz, Gil Kane's always been a favourite of mine, although I always preferred his work inside the comics to his covers.
DW, I liked Miller's earlier work but it all eventually got too stylised for my liking.
I, somehow, totally missed Bill Sienkiewicz's Neal Adams phase and first encountered him when he'd become more daring. At first, I thought he was too pretentious but I quickly came to appreciate him.
Matthew and McScotty, I used to like Howard Chaykin's work but it doesn't really grab me these days.
Meant to say ‘it’s hard to fault anyone for that’ at the end there.
b.t.
Steve and McScotty:
I was a big Tom Sutton fan right from the jump. (Cue the obligatory WEREWOLF BY NIGHT #10 shout-out in 3…2….1….)
Besides WBN #9 and 10 ( which I consider Sutton’s very finest comics art) my first exposure to his work was in CRAZY! #1 (color comic) which reprinted a wild Wally Wood / MAD style X-men parody from NOT BRAND ECHH #8, and an issue of AMAZING ADVENTURES featuring The Beast, inked by Mike Ploog. After that, it was the two Werewolf issues, the two Morbius stories he did for VAMPIRE TALES, those insane PLANET OF THE APES stories, a ton of work for Warren (including the earliest Vampirella stories) and of course lots and lots and LOTS of horror shorts for Charlton.
It must be said that quite a bit of his Charlton output was clearly hacked out at top speed, but even the weaker jobs have a certain quirky charm , and most of them are really REALLY fun to look at. A handful are among the best work he ever did. He was a pretty decent writer too, in his ‘Mock Lovecraftian’ mode. I’m always happy to find fellow Sutton Fans singing his praises.
I've never understood why so many people say it was Stan Lee's scripts that made Marvel a hit as it was Kirby's artwork that made the immediate impact on me, reading the old weekly FF and Thor reprints. And any issue of Kamandi or his other DCs I could find.
I loved the strange ugliness of it. Same with Mike McMahon and Alex Nino - discovering them was like hearing Captain Beefheart or the Residents for the first time later.
People like Adams, Wrightson and Bolland were great too of course, but you can see where they're coming from.
Tbh, the only artists I'm keen on who I didn't like at first are those who actually weren't very good at first. The example that springs to mind is Brendan McCarthy. He's done some fantastic stuff - Freakwave, Rogan Josh, Skin and some of the most stylish Dredds... but his earliest work in the progs still looks as unimpressive as it did back in the day.
And then theres Barry Smith - his first Conan looked pretty average to me in SSOC weekly #1.
These days I don't think he really got any good til 'Hawks of the Sea', although clearly he's done some pretty good stuff since. Like his recent 'Monsters' book - its great to see at least someone from that generation actually live up to their legend.
-sean
Its much easier to come up with artists I used to be into, but don't much care for now.
Like Paul Gulacy.
Going back to his run on MOKF years later, I couldn't believe I'd never noticed how out of proportion his figures were - and not in a good way! - and how awkward they looked. He seemed to have sorted that out a bit by the time he did Sabre, but that just looks stiff and lifeless to me now (and I have to say, if we were extending this discussion to writers I'd be laying into Dauntless Don McGregor too).
Also, Jim Steranko (yeah, you read that right).
Back when I first saw his stuff - the SHIELD reprints in Captain Brexit - and for quite a while after I thought he was just the dogs bollocks as a comic artist.
Over time though, as an obsessive reader inevitably I found were he got a lot of 'his' ideas from. He hadn't so much developed Kirby's approach into whole new directions as just added bits of Will Eisner, Wally Wood and Guido Crepax; and it also became clear that underneath that he didn't really have much in the way of drawing chops.
Now, none of that is necessarily a problem - you could say basically the same about Frank Miller. But Fearless Frank is a great story teller, whereas Jaunty Jim just gives us a series of flashy images (which is why he's best remembered for his covers).
I won't deny that Steranko was ahead of his time though.
He was the Rob Liefeld of the 60s.
-sean
LOL brutal but funny comment on Steranko being the Liefeld of the 60s Sean. Liefeld was /is average ( and that's being kind)
‘The Rob Liefeld of the 60s’ — I knew Sean would bring something interesting to this discussion but JEEZ-us :)
Gulacy — I actually quite like the weird distortions that were so prevalent in his earliest stories. Throughout his MASTER OF KUNG FU run, you could clearly see that he was getting more skilled month by month, and the cartoony stylistics gave way to more ‘realistic’ draftsmanship. I enjoy what he was doing at both ends of the MOKF spectrum and all points in-between. After that, on SABRE and onward, i have to agree that his work became more stilted and static — lots more photo-swipes too — and less fun to look at.
Barry Smith’s style had a somewhat similar trajectory, and starting from a common primary influence too (Steranko). I like his wacky early X-men and Daredevil stuff a lot, his stuff from that period looks like wildly enthusiastic fanzine art. He starts evolving out of the kooky Kirby/Steranko On Acid stylistics pretty quickly, but it was all still pretty lively, and some of his early Conans are fantastic. But there are also lots and lots of really odd facial features and bizarre anatomical shenanigans throughout his entire run on Conan, even on his elaborately ornate Art Noveau/Celtika period (‘Song of Red Sonja’, ‘Red Nails’ etc) — and his occasional Avengers and Ka-Zars too. He never did get as ‘realistic’ as Gulacy became, or as stiff — his stuff has always had some dynamic ‘bounce’ to it, and you’d never confuse his drawings with photographs.
b.t.
Average, Paul? You're not kidding about being kind - Liefeld is terrible!
Ok, I was exaggerating. A bit.
But what I meant was that Steranko basically invented the 90s Image approach to comics two and a half decades earlier (and he's a MAGA nut, so I wasn't inclined to be kind to him ;).
b.t., you're not wrong about some of the faces and anatomy in 'Song of the Red Sonja' and 'Red Nails' - and some of the inking is a bit peculiar - but I still like them anyway. Barry Smith's continual changes are a big part of his appeal as an artist, although these days I can't get with the earlier stuff at all.
On artists who use photo referencing, you just reminded me that I have a higher opinion of Gray Morrow than I used to. Probably because back in the day I only really saw his later work, like Pacific's 'Edge of Chaos', which is fairly boring.
He's the kind of old skool artist who's reputation benefits from the internet imo - not as good or popular as, say, Al Williamson so there were never any reprints, but now you can discover his stuff online...
-sean
Anyone up for throwing in Ditko, along with Steranko, as one who did not age well?
in about a year in Steve DC’s 50 years ago, we’ll see Jaunty Jim’s work on FF which really aint all that (though it is impressive in black and white.) Steve maybe you can include the additional Agent of Shield covers in your column from that time as well from Jimmy?
Sean is that MAGA as in Make America Great Again? If so then I take it back, Steranko couldn't lace Liefelds boots art wise ( nope sorry I can't seriously say that even if Steranko was a MAGA nut).
Ditko's art certainly dropped when he moved back to Marvel from DC and did Machine Man, Speedball etc. Arguably it dropped when he moved to DC in the 70s but I really liked "Shade the Changing Man" so I'll let him off.
Charlie:
I’ve been thinking about Ditko actually (in the context of this thread). When I first got into comics (‘73) he was doing horror comics at Charlton, which I thought looked rushed and sloppy and his people all looked insane. And his Atlas Era sci-fi / horror / monster shorts would often show up in Marvel’s various reprint titles — they looked similar to his ‘current’ work but more polished. I understood from reading the letters pages that he’d been the first artist on Spider-Man and some fans were still moaning about how that book had gone downhill after he left and never recovered. I was like, ‘THAT guy? On SPIDEY???’
I was so used to Romita, Kane and Andru on Spidey that when I finally saw a few reprints of Ditko’s Spidey stories, i bounced off ‘em pretty hard. To this day, I’m still not a fan of his Spider-Man run. I do respect them and appreciate them, but I don’t think I’ll ever love them.
Conversely, I love his Dr. Strange stuff, his Creeper and Question and Blue Beetle stuff, and I’ve even come around on his Charlton horror stuff. They still look a bit rushed and his people still look CRAAAAZY, but I like ‘em.
b.t.
Sean- yes, Barry Smith's "Monsters " was quite a book. A powerful read, and the first time I'd read his writing (as opposed to simply viewing his art). Speaking of his art, I found his work on "Monsters" remarkable; some visual elements of his earlier work but somehow more....grounded, maybe.
And don't get me started on Liefeld! Symptomatic of the 90's tendency to cram the page full of line work with no real consideration of design, composition or contrast. Ok, I'll step off the soapbox.
McScotty- I'd agree with you that Ditko declined a bit in later years, but I still enjoyed it. Still had a nice looseness and vibrancy...
Yeah, Steranko fell down the MAGA rabbit-hole, and pretty deep too. One of my vivid memories of Election Day 2016: reading one of his tweets ranting about locking up Hilary Clinton and her Pedophile Pizza Parlor Pals, and how only Trump could save the nation from ruin etc — I suppose I’d always guessed that he was somewhat Conservative politically, but to see him repeating Trump’s demented conspiracy theory talking points, almost verbatim, was kinda shocking (and sad). That was my first chilling inkling that day, that the polls were wrong, and that something very, very bad was about to happen. He was tweeting ugly crap about Covid being the ‘Kung Flu’ last year too (while violence against Asian people in the US was on the rise).
It’s hard to separate the Art from the Artist sometimes, but I do still admire and appreciate his comics and illustration.
Sure, if I had to approve of an artists opinions I'd probably like hardly any of them. 'Holy Terror' was terrible, but it didn't put me off Fearless Frank generally.
But I don't mind stirring up an argument (;
-sean
Al Williamson — I liked his stuff more when I was younger. His Star Wars stuff looks tepid and generic and vague to me now (the newspaper strips and the two movie adaptations). The Flash Gordon comics he drew for King Features are really terrific Faux-Raymond and I like a bunch of his stories in the early Warren mags, but most of his stuff leaves me kinda cold. People rave about his EC sci-fi stuff but except for when he was inked by Frazetta, i don’t much care for it.
b.t.
Neal Adams in the 1960s and 70s and Berni Wrightson in the 1970s were in peak form. After that, the decline came in slowly and steadily until their work had fallen in quality considerably. Steve Ditko's decline began by 1970 and continued to reach new lows with his self-published Randian rants. Few artists (and creators of any kind in general) stay in peak form, or continue to scale new heights. The exceptions are few, but remarkable. Renaissance artist Titian painted right up to age 99 and continued to improve (and outlived most of his contemporaries by several decades). Rock guitarist Jeff Beck kept refining his technique right up to the end. Clint Eastwood keeps growing and improving as a filmmaker as the years go on. These are some of the remarkable exceptions.
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